Gotta hand it to you. It takes some guts to take on the entire Frumstack consensus and push marriage for frum gay men.
Absolutely fascinating that you think most women would prefer marrying a man who does not desire her physically but is a great companion in life, to a marriage with an emotionally distant partner but physically satisfying.
When you said “marriage for frum gay men”, I thought that would be the perfect solution to your quandary. but then I realised that you didn’t mean same-sex marriage. That unprohibited arrangement would mitigate the gay sex issue and permit many closeted Jews to come out of the closet and remain frum Jews.
Now there’s a resolution to become more inclusive to the 3-5% of your orthodox/frum/chareidi society that is gay!! Is that part of your vision for Hashem’s plan to defeat the sexual aberration that He embedded into their essential nature?
1) Look, many, many kids take Ritalin etc. to be able to manage their behavior and excel in yeshivah/ school. If you hadn't noticed, excelling in Yeshivah/school is pretty high on the list for being accepted in frum society. Is that part of "Hashem's plan" to defeat the emotional challenges these kids have? I don't know. I'll try what works.
Why can't gays take drugs to be able to manage their prohibited urges and be accepted in frum society in the exact same way?
2) "That He embedded into their essential nature"
That is far from settled science. Your confidence is way over the top here.
I think in the Dati Leumi world it has been tried, setting up “lesbians” with gay men (I put that in quotes because it is also a complicated subject, and I believe that the nurture/nature issue is not at all clear-cut. I personally believe there is much choice involved in SSA women).
I have no problem if a girl knows what she's getting into and chooses it. For many divorced couples who had a bad experience in round one or even two, they may just want this easier option
So you’re saying you would be opposed to any marriage of a ‘gay’ man to a never-married woman because her consent is incomplete as she isn’t aware of what she’s missing?
I guess you’re saying this despite the shidduch crisis and all (which Hadasa emphasized in the last essays)?
But isn’t this a bit paternalistic? What if she feels that marriage, and establishing a family, is a basic biological need which she shouldn’t delay, and perhaps risk losing altogether, if the proposed candidate is excellent in all other areas? Must we insist that she is wrong? Or are you just saying that you wouldn’t encourage it?
You keep saying women care less about physical/sexual pleasure. I can maybe hear the argument that they care less than men (and I'd still want proper sources for that), but to say that it's not a factor of significance for women is just not accurate.
Physical pleasure is a factor for many women, for some even the main factor. As for as a source, this is what google AI overview gave me. Why don't you google it yourself and tell me what you find.
It's also not just about the actual physical pleasure; it's about the closeness that comes with a guy being into the girl in a uniquely intimate way. The hugs, the kisses, even if they aren't actual sex, they are given with greater feeling because it's not platonic. Also, a guy will fight for his doll when things get hard (as reality hits the marriage, sometimes in a very strong way), but if this factor is missing, it will be a million times harder for him to fight.
I hear, The unique power of intimacy is under represented in shalom bayis literature. And there is something to 'hot sex' or even a hot kiss. Still, I think you're thinking like a boy. And I think like a girl. I don't care all that much, what would make a man fight for his doll, because those are not the same reasons why a woman would sacrifice for her marriage. A woman has far more interest in being seen and heard, than used for sex. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not saying sex isn't a key ingredient in marriage. I'm saying girls don't see it from the same exact perspective and that sex alone is not enough to save a marriage.
i don't even mean a hot kiss, I even mean a regular kiss. I always advise people (advising myself included) to give tons of regular hugs and kisses, far far more than hot kisses. Most girls want hot kisses only sometimes, and only in the right context (I wrote about this at length in my post "How To Love Your Wife").
And I think for a girl the sex itself is not the main part of the relationship. But exactly what you say a girl wants, attention, being seen, being heard, these are things a good husband must do for her. But what keeps him, the guy, fighting for her is the magnet. When stress rises, when life gets hard, the immense love that is *not* platonic - it isn't sexual either (sex is supposed to be tool, not an end) - is what makes their relationship special. I know the non-platonic aspect also creates many problems, but that doesn't change what a good marriage is supposed to be and what a girl can get out of it.
I think you're taking what many boys go for - sex as an end - and projecting that onto the girl (naturally), and concluding that she isn't interested. But if sex was used as the tool, in the right way, maybe we'd be on the same page. - ? -
I wanted to read you post on "how to love your wife" But I don't have money for subscriptions, so sorry, that I don't understand your position entirely.
Sex is what motivates a man to give himself to his wife, (the what's-in-it-for-me)
When learning/teaching about marriage, sex is the key to understand. because it's the basis of the relationship.
And yeah, I don't think like a man. I hope we're on the same page now.
Still, I want to point out two practical things of today's dating world. 1) the minimizing of anything sexual in Jewish culture and 2)the disadvantage girls have because of the shiduch crises
Gotta hand it to you. It takes some guts to take on the entire Frumstack consensus and push marriage for frum gay men.
Absolutely fascinating that you think most women would prefer marrying a man who does not desire her physically but is a great companion in life, to a marriage with an emotionally distant partner but physically satisfying.
When you said “marriage for frum gay men”, I thought that would be the perfect solution to your quandary. but then I realised that you didn’t mean same-sex marriage. That unprohibited arrangement would mitigate the gay sex issue and permit many closeted Jews to come out of the closet and remain frum Jews.
זה נהנה וזה לא חסר
"Unprohibited arrangement"? Maybe if they castrated themselves first...
Castrate themselves.
Now there’s a resolution to become more inclusive to the 3-5% of your orthodox/frum/chareidi society that is gay!! Is that part of your vision for Hashem’s plan to defeat the sexual aberration that He embedded into their essential nature?
But I wonder how that would work for Lesbians?
1) Look, many, many kids take Ritalin etc. to be able to manage their behavior and excel in yeshivah/ school. If you hadn't noticed, excelling in Yeshivah/school is pretty high on the list for being accepted in frum society. Is that part of "Hashem's plan" to defeat the emotional challenges these kids have? I don't know. I'll try what works.
Why can't gays take drugs to be able to manage their prohibited urges and be accepted in frum society in the exact same way?
2) "That He embedded into their essential nature"
That is far from settled science. Your confidence is way over the top here.
I think in the Dati Leumi world it has been tried, setting up “lesbians” with gay men (I put that in quotes because it is also a complicated subject, and I believe that the nurture/nature issue is not at all clear-cut. I personally believe there is much choice involved in SSA women).
Perhaps you've found your tafkid.
Maybe you can be a shadchan for gay men.
It isn't easy. It requires much secrecy and diplomacy, but I'm sure it can be done.
And they claim there are many gays so it would be a big yeshua.
Yes, I'm serious.
Thank you for your confidence in me. I'd love to. If you recommend me, I'd give it a shot.
In general, I have confidence in those who really deeply care about an issue.
They are the only ones who get things done.
I don't know any such people.
Maybe Shulman? (I don't know if he's principally opposed to such a marriage or just that it needs consent.}
I have no problem if a girl knows what she's getting into and chooses it. For many divorced couples who had a bad experience in round one or even two, they may just want this easier option
You are saying specifically divorcees because they have a better grasp on 'what marriage is' as opposed to the 'typical Beis Yakov girl'?
Yes, for example. Also that any unmarried girl may have opinions without knowing what she's missing.
I thought that was basically the first but okay.
So you’re saying you would be opposed to any marriage of a ‘gay’ man to a never-married woman because her consent is incomplete as she isn’t aware of what she’s missing?
I guess you’re saying this despite the shidduch crisis and all (which Hadasa emphasized in the last essays)?
But isn’t this a bit paternalistic? What if she feels that marriage, and establishing a family, is a basic biological need which she shouldn’t delay, and perhaps risk losing altogether, if the proposed candidate is excellent in all other areas? Must we insist that she is wrong? Or are you just saying that you wouldn’t encourage it?
You keep saying women care less about physical/sexual pleasure. I can maybe hear the argument that they care less than men (and I'd still want proper sources for that), but to say that it's not a factor of significance for women is just not accurate.
Physical pleasure is a factor for many women, for some even the main factor. As for as a source, this is what google AI overview gave me. Why don't you google it yourself and tell me what you find.
It's also not just about the actual physical pleasure; it's about the closeness that comes with a guy being into the girl in a uniquely intimate way. The hugs, the kisses, even if they aren't actual sex, they are given with greater feeling because it's not platonic. Also, a guy will fight for his doll when things get hard (as reality hits the marriage, sometimes in a very strong way), but if this factor is missing, it will be a million times harder for him to fight.
I hear, The unique power of intimacy is under represented in shalom bayis literature. And there is something to 'hot sex' or even a hot kiss. Still, I think you're thinking like a boy. And I think like a girl. I don't care all that much, what would make a man fight for his doll, because those are not the same reasons why a woman would sacrifice for her marriage. A woman has far more interest in being seen and heard, than used for sex. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not saying sex isn't a key ingredient in marriage. I'm saying girls don't see it from the same exact perspective and that sex alone is not enough to save a marriage.
i don't even mean a hot kiss, I even mean a regular kiss. I always advise people (advising myself included) to give tons of regular hugs and kisses, far far more than hot kisses. Most girls want hot kisses only sometimes, and only in the right context (I wrote about this at length in my post "How To Love Your Wife").
And I think for a girl the sex itself is not the main part of the relationship. But exactly what you say a girl wants, attention, being seen, being heard, these are things a good husband must do for her. But what keeps him, the guy, fighting for her is the magnet. When stress rises, when life gets hard, the immense love that is *not* platonic - it isn't sexual either (sex is supposed to be tool, not an end) - is what makes their relationship special. I know the non-platonic aspect also creates many problems, but that doesn't change what a good marriage is supposed to be and what a girl can get out of it.
I think you're taking what many boys go for - sex as an end - and projecting that onto the girl (naturally), and concluding that she isn't interested. But if sex was used as the tool, in the right way, maybe we'd be on the same page. - ? -
I wanted to read you post on "how to love your wife" But I don't have money for subscriptions, so sorry, that I don't understand your position entirely.
Sex is what motivates a man to give himself to his wife, (the what's-in-it-for-me)
When learning/teaching about marriage, sex is the key to understand. because it's the basis of the relationship.
And yeah, I don't think like a man. I hope we're on the same page now.
Still, I want to point out two practical things of today's dating world. 1) the minimizing of anything sexual in Jewish culture and 2)the disadvantage girls have because of the shiduch crises
Check your DMs